Answers to Common Questions

Improving Participation in Varsity/Venturing

    How to get 14 and 15 year old interested in Varsity Scouting activities?

      Our 14 and 15 year olds do not seem interested in Varsity scouting activities. What can we do to get them interested in Varsity Scouting? (23 November 1998)

        Varsity leader

      Dear Brother:

      Here are some of my thoughts about making Varsity Scouting go. (Of course we have a lot to say in the last part of the Varsity Guidebook on the website.  Did you download it and print it off? Read especially the last half--about 15 pages on this topic.)  But summarizing:

      • Leaders should have a sense of high adventure--love to do Varsity scout things, such as hike, backpack, climb mountains, fish, rappel, canoe or kayak, explore ruins, see great scenery, learn and play new sports, winter camp, cross-country ski, etc.  This enthusiasm will rub off on the majority of youth.  Don't cancel a planned event, even if only one kid will go. Take lots of pictures. Come home and let the others know what they missed in a positive way. Hold a Quarterly Parents/Awards night, with slides, refreshments, and lots of enthusiasm.
      • Run a good program planning process--build year-long skeleton calendar starting with a Varsity Interest Survey, quarterly program themes, lots of high adventures and new experiences cutting across all program areas.
      • Organize the Team so that every kid has an office and leads particular activities. Don't let them fail. Have a good detailed planning process keeping plans pushed out a couple of months ahead (preferably this is tightly tied into the Teachers Quorum Presidency meetings).
      • Have two or preferably three or more good men working directly with the program, with the boys.  (You can't do it with less.)  Everyone get trained. I mean Basic, then Wood Badge. If you are in the Wasatch Front of Utah, there are training programs specifically designed for Varsity leaders; otherwise go to regular scout leader training. 
      • Insist on a good Team committee which meets monthly to give support. The committee chair should be included in all training. Promote the program constantly with parents and younger scouts. Let them know what great things the Team has planned and how wonderful it will be when they turn 14.

      Varsity Scouting is the greatest! 

      Good luck and let me know if you have more questions and how you are doing.

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    How to interest older boys in Varsity and Venturing or other YM activities?

      I have reviewed the material you posted on the web regarding scouting and the priesthood.  I have been recently called to be YM Pres. in a new ward after moving to WA. Your material has been very helpful as I am trying to understand the interaction between scouting and the priesthood in a ward that just established a scout troop 5 months ago and the activity nights for the YM are not focused or designed to follow an overall structure.

      First question: May I adapt your writings for our Ward?  I have personal experience of having a step-son who elected to not participate in youth night beyond a certain age because he had lost interest in scouting and that was THE ONLY focus of youth night for the Aaronic priesthood in our ward in CA.

      I have a goal of being able to structure the Varsity and Venture programs to maintain the interest of boys who have lost interest in scouting.  If I cannot accomplish this goal then I will need to establish a parallel, non-scouting, program to maintain the interest of those boys. As I review your material further I would appreciate any thoughts you may have on this goal.

               YM President in Washington State (31 May 1999)

      Dear Brother:

      I am gratified that you find our efforts to optimize the scouting programs as supports to Aaronic Priesthood potentially usefully.  You have my permission to use the materials we have placed on our web-site in any way that would be helpful.

      However, I am not sure that I understand your statement about possibly needing to provide a parallel program for (I assume) Teacher and Priest-age young men who have lost interest in scouting. When you say scouting are you talking about 11-13 year old boy scouting with work on merit badges and basic camping and outdoor skills?  My experience is that almost all young men lose interest in the 11-13 year old program when the get to be 14 or older.  They want to lead and plan the programs themselves; they want high adventure activities that use the outdoor door skills they have learned at a younger age, but as means to other ends, not as ends in themselves; they want sports included in their activity programs, also career development, dating skills, cars, etc.

      That is why we use the Varsity and Venturing programs for our older young men, instead of boy scouting.  In many years of working with these programs in connection with Teachers and Priests quorums, I have almost never seen a young man not be interested in well-designed examples of these programs, unless he is not interested in constructive things at all. These programs are so comprehensive and flexible, if they are well developed, they simply work---boys love them and grow stronger, quorums are strengthened, testimonies are built, relationships of influence are built between young men and their adult leaders, etc.

      The biggest hurdle to overcome is the lack of vision on the part of adult leaders, in my experience. By all means, use our materials, get trained, catch the full vision of these programs, and make them work.

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    Need more ideas of Priests/Venturing activities—how to get more attendance at activities?

      I am a new Young-Men's President/Venture Adviser and am looking for ideas for activities that will be successful.  I am only getting about 25% of my Priests out to Mutual.  I need approved activity ideas to take before my priests to see if any of them will be more willing to attend if I offer something unique.

      Thanks again for your help.

        New Young-Men's President/Venture Adviser (07 March 2003)

      Dear Brother:

      My experience with Priest's activities is that the YM support them best when they are in charge and have (at least for the most part) planned them themselves.  That is why we try to implement the use of the full Venturing program, because it has supports for boy planning and leadership if done right. There is quite a lot of promoting, educating, and organizing work to lay this groundwork. You may be trying to overcome considerable inertia and a tradition of not doing much in the quorum.  Therefore, neither the YM or their parents have any expectation of  what a good Venturing program can do for these Priests.

      Its best if you get support and active involvement from the Bishop.  Suppose that you and the Bishop get together and make a commitment to each other that in your Priests quorum you are going to run a full-bore Venturing program (no compromises, no shortcuts).  Then, you two go into your next Quorum Presidency meeting and enlist the support of your Presidency. Sell Venturing to them.  Perhaps say to them that the program of the Church and of your ward is that the Priests are to have a good, effective Venturing crew for their activity program. Let them know that Venturing gives extra YM leadership experience and training to prepare them for their future lives (missions, careers, family responsibilities). Venturing activities are YM-led, so they will be able to plan and direct their own activities. Then let them help you plan how to sell this to the other members of the quorum and their parents.  Perhaps a meeting for all of the Priests and their parents in which the Bishop endorses this higher level of program and the Bishops Priest quorum first assistance give the details of what is planned, would kick start the process.  Feel free to use any of our materials that would be helpful.

      One critical thing to address is that in wards with weakly supported Priests/Venturing programs, many of the guys will have jobs that require them to work on Mutual night. Several years ago, we had the then-Bishop and his assistants challenge the YM to clear their calendars for Mutual night--talk to their bosses, arrange to get off.  Don't be shy about making this challenge. When we were trying to get a tradition of Venturing started in our ward, the Bishop not only challenged the YM, he asked them if they needed any help.  He promised them that he personally would speak with their supervisors if that was what was needed.

      Next come the steps of creating a Venturing organization, training the guys on how to run Venturing, creating a year calendar.  Have you carefully reviewed the 12 step program the guys from my Priests/Venture group present on our website?

      I really like and have had good success with doing a Venture Interest Survey of all the YM.  We have an example on the website, and there is another in the BSA Venturer leader handbook. Or, you could make up one on your own. Make a list out of the Church's old Activity guidebook or combine that with items in the Priests Duty to God book. See steps 4 and 5 in our 12 Steps to Getting a Venturing Program Going pages.  Also look carefully at the Tools for Running a Venturing Program in an LDS Priests Quorum.  There are conducting outlines for the various meetings the YM need to lead.

      I hope these ideas help some.  Feel free to contact me again if there are other issues, or let me know how things go.

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Getting Church Leader Support for Varsity/Venturing

    Is Venturing being used?

      We were just wondering if your Stake has incorporated the new Venture program for the Priest aged young men?

        YM leader in Hawaii (02 January 1999)

      Dear Brother:

      We are trying to use the new terminology.  Other than the new vocabulary, it doesn't appear that there are major differences except that the awards programs seem to be richer in Venturing.

             Good luck with your program.

          

      Our local council has told us that the Explorers program is now the Venturing program. Is that consistent with what is happening in your area? 

        YM leader in Idaho (07 March 1999)

      Dear Brother:

      Its true that national BSA changed the name of Exploring program we have been using to Venturing on last September 1st.   The new materials we have seen should not really change the way a Priests quorum and stake runs the program appreciably--just sub in the new names and use the old processes. 

      One major change is that the awards programs are greatly enriched.

      Thanks for your note.  Let me know if there is something to support you in creating a great activity program for your Priests.

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    The Varsity Scouting void

      Just a note to say Thank You for your efforts. I have recently been called to the Varsity   Assistant Team Coach in a ward that has never had a strong Scouting program. Even though I have been a Scouter 15 years there is a void on Varsity Scouts in an LDS setting.  I just wanted you to know that some of the seed you have sown has found fertile soil.

        Varsity Leader in California (04 April 1999)

      Dear Brother:

      Thanks for your interest.  I love Varsity Scouting.  There is so much in that program to catch the interest of 14-15 year olds and hold them close to the Lord.  I also believe that in the Church we are seriously under-using the programs for our older boys, mostly because many of the Melchizedek Priesthood holders who are called as leaders do not pay the price to catch the vision of how these programs can support Aaronic Priesthood work and do not become proficient in using the programs.  Congratulations on having the desire to find out about Varsity--that's a big first step.  If there is anything I can do to assist you, let me know.

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    Is the Church still using the Exploring program?

      I say Robert, I find your site of great interest.  I'm wondering... years ago in the 60s-70s, I recall LDS sponsored Explorer posts.  I no longer find them.  They seem to be Varsity scouts, where they exist. But, do you know of any Explorer posts which are sponsored by a LDS unit?

      Here in... Iowa, we run the scouts as Blazers for the 11 year olds Scouts for the 12-13 year old deacons, Venturers for the 14-15 teachers, then we call it quits. I'd be grateful for any help

        Scout Leader in Iowa (20 Apr 1999)

      Dear Brother:

      The Venturing program is now the program of choice for Priest age young men. The BSA replaced Exploring September 1, 1998 with Venturing for our kind of program needs.  Until this change, there had been a limited number of effective Explorer Posts in Utah wards.  Most wards here had registered Explorer Posts and perhaps a fifth or tenth of them ran creditable programs.  The new Venturing manuals do not make major changes from what we have been doing here with Exploring except for terminology.  (I am not talking about the so-called Venture patrol that was briefly referenced as a high-adventure adjunct to Scout Troops--p. 26 of the Scoutmaster Handbook, 1990 edition; rather, a full separate program).

      Here in Utah, most Teachers Quorums use Varsity Scouting, although Venturing would also work for the 14-15 year old age group, I believe.  There is a 1991 Varsity Scout leader Guidebook published by BSA.  It sounds from what you say that Varsity Scouting has not caught on in your area of Iowa.  Varsity Scouting was pretty much invented for LDS Teachers Quorum use by Utah scouters, and probably is not usually supported very well by BSA away from this area.

      I understand that the change of Exploring to the name Venturing by BSA is consistent with international scouting programs, where it typically is the young adult program of scouting. I have a contact in Calgary, Alberta (a stake YM president) who reports that they use Boy Scouts of Canada's Venturing program for both Priests and Teachers quorums. In wards with lots of boys they run a separate program for each quorum; in wards with small numbers the program is combined.

      I think you will find fairly complete descriptions of how we use both Varsity Scouting for the 14-15 year olds and Venturing (formerly Exploring) for the 16-18 year olds in our web-site, especially if you will down load and print the guide documents for the two programs.

      I love both the Varsity Scouting and Venturing.  I have seen both programs well-run and making a difference in the lives of our young men, including my own sons. However, there is a constant challenge to help parents, boys, new church leaders, etc., to catch the vision of how to use the programs effectively. In the wards in my area, we do not do half as well with these programs as we do with Cubs and with Scouting for the 11-13 year olds. The biggest problem is getting enough trained leaders.  My view of a partial long range solution would be to use the same program for both Teachers and Priests, like our Canadian brother described. The emphasis might still be a little different with the Teachers group being high adventure and the Priests career (or mission) preparation.  That would make training interchangeable for adult leaders.

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    Getting support from Church leaders for Varsity and Venturing

      20 Sep 1999

      Dear Brother:

      We wish that the priesthood leadership of the Church did a better job of supporting the older boy scouting programs. We hear constantly from young mens presidents in wards across the country wanting to know how to get started and particularly how to persuade their priesthood leaders to give enough resources and support to the programs to make them work.

      I have come to the conclusion that Varsity and Venturers are the most important programs.  They gives us tools to hang on to the YM in their most vulnerable years. In our ward, what we are doing organizationally is to put 3 strong faithful priesthood holders in each unit, as the:

      • YM president/Priests advisor/Venturer Advisor and 2 assistants
      • YM 1st counselor/Teachers advisor/Varsity coach and 2 assistants
      • YM 2nd Counselor/Deacons advisor/Scoutmaster and 2 assistants
       
      We should have everyone through BSA basic for their program in the next month. We got our YM 2nd C/Scoutmaster and YM First C/Varsity coach each through Wood Badge this summer and hope to add 2 or 3 next year.

      Our stake along with 4-5 neighboring stake sponsors a yearly Wood Badge-type course for youth called Priests Leadership Conference, which teaches Venturing in an Aaronic Priesthood setting to the older young men.  Seven of our current Priests have attended that.  Our BSA council does not help us much with Venturing so our combined stakes are trying to fill that void.  We hope to have our 3 adults who work with the Priests in that course next summer (they do an adult section). We really believe in training.

      We struggle some with Venturing, mostly because there is not much of a tradition in how to do it well. I'm the Bishop currently and I'm trying my best to help the quorum and the adult advisors make it happen. We have just recently called new adult leaders and they are young and enthusiastic but not trained yet. The boys actually know the program better than their adult advisors. I made myself the Venturer Committee chairman to try to keep really close watch over the program. We are trying to follow the 12 step program that is in the Venturing Guide on our website. We have our organization in place. Our current efforts are to create a good long-range calendar, to write code and by-laws and decide on a DDI, and then to start to work the detailed planning of weekly activities, through the use of Venturer Leader committee (Quorum presidency) meeting, monthly Crew business meeting, Crew Committee meetings, Committee chairman-consultant relationships, etc.  Lots to do.

      Our Varsity team has a great tradition of high adventure, and our Scout Troop does a good job with camps and advancement, and both of these programs are in good hands. My 2nd counselor is an old scoutmaster who really knows what quality scouting is all about.  In our Bishopric and with our YM leaders, we are blessed to have a strong feeling of unity in purpose and goal in how to work our four scouting programs to support AP purposes, and this is a real joy to me.  I feel confident that we are positioning ourselves to do about the best that we can do to bless and strengthen our young men.

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    How to get wards to register and run the full Venturing program?

      I am very impressed with the material you have provided on the page for LDS Venturing. I  am a DE.  Of the six wards in the district I serve, only three have Venturing Crews.  Out of the three wards who have Crews, only one is doing the program. What other avenues can I try?

        Scouting District Executive  in Alaska (22 January 2000)

      Dear Brother:

      We struggle in Salt Lake too with those kinds of percentages.  You might try sharing some of the materials on our website. I think you have to have a good level of commitment at the Bishop and Stake President levels.  Also you might refer to our document "A Bishop looks at Scouting" on our website, which summarizes our experiences in organizing within an LDS ward to make the scouting programs effective.

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    Getting Young Mens leaders to use the Varsity and Venturing programs

      I am so glad to see how well you have outlined the BSA LDS scouting program. In our area we have struggled to get the LDS leaders to offer the Varsity and Venture program.  Every now and then we get one or two Wards that get the program going but not more than 2-4 years.

      Because of this many boys will earn the required merit badges to get Eagle but always lack in scout spirit and holding a BSA position of responsibility.  Most of the LDS boys in our Council at the age of 14 do not have any type of uniform, do not do any scouting except attend one super activity per year, play basketball, and work on merit badges. They get Eagle because it is not, according to our Council, their fault the leaders do not get trained and offer the Varsity or Venture program. Thus the LDS boys do not have to do any scouting to earn Eagle.  All they have to do is serve in the priesthood quorums.

      I am glad to see that the Scouting program does work for the Church and I thank you for sharing your program.  One day I hope one of our leaders will implement your program in this area.  So far I have been unsuccessful in getting our local leaders to do what you have done.  Your site gives me comfort and hope to know that scouting and the church can and will work hand in hand.

      My background if you care is: After 2 years or pleading, begging, encouraging, our oldest son turned 15 and our Twins turned 14 and the new Varsity leader got trained and started the Varsity program.  My wife and I both got trained the year my oldest son turned 14.  We had great success with this program but never could get the Explorer then the Venture Leader to get trained and try the BSA scout program.

      All three of my sons did well. All are Eagle Scouts and one earned 8 palms, one 4 palms, and the other 6 palms. They all earned the Varsity Letter and 4-6 activity pins. We never could get our leaders to do the Venture awards.

      Once again, thanks for sharing your scouting program.

        Varsity Leader and BSA District worker in California (16 Mar 2002)

      Dear Brother:

      We have many of the same problems right here in the heart of Zion--leaders not paying the price to catch the vision of how to use the "older boy" scouting programs--except that there are persons in leadership positions in most of the scouting councils and districts who understand how to use these programs in LDS settings.  As we hear from LDS YM leaders from places away from where there is a concentration of LDS members, it seems to us that there is little or no help available to them anywhere--not from their stakes, not from local BSA.  It is sad, because these programs are wonderful and powerful tools to use at the most critical time of a young latter-day saint's life, to support young men achieving Aaronic priesthood purposes.

      Keep looking into our website. We have more ideas we are trying to get ready regarding the training of leaders in regard to the implementation of these programs.  Thanks for writing.

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Church's Commitment to Scouting

    Official national LDS scouting site?

      (09 December 2002)

      Would your site be considered the "official national" one? If not, does such a site exist?

      Dear Brother:

      I do not know of an official site for scouting in the LDS church.  We are a couple of guys trying to help the scouting programs be used more effectively by LDS church congregations, especially for the older youths.

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      (06 February 2003)

      I enjoyed reviewing the material on your website.  I need to prepare a few remarks for an upcoming Sacrament meeting talk on the history of Scouting in the Church.

      Would you know of another website/source that summarizes this history?

      Thanks for any help you can provide.

        Scoutmaster from Oklahoma

      Dear Brother:

      I am not aware of anything out on the web, but there ought to be.  Maybe we will work on that. (I keep saying that as soon as I retire I'll have more time.)

      I remember there being a master thesis or two at BYU on that topic.  There also have been articles in the BSA magazine for leaders, Scouting, a few years ago on Scouting-LDS relationships.

      I recall seeing evidence that the Church had its own boy scout program for a year or two at the time the scouting movement came to this country (before 1910). Instruction materials on how to run the program were published in a magazine put out at that time by the general YMMIA.  A committee was appointed by the Church with someone prominent as the chair (was it President Hinckley's dad, Bryant Hinckley??) to investigate whether an affiliation with the newly formed BSA would be of benefit.  Their recommendation was to join the national movement and so we did and have been part of BSA ever since.  One of the points of this is that the Church has a commitment to boy scouting as a part of its YM program that predates (and therefore is greater than) its BSA affiliation.

      I have heard that the Exploring (now Venturing) program had its origins with the Church, but don't know the source.  I do know that LDS men initiated the Varsity Scout program.  My recollection of this is that a group of adult YM leaders in the Utah County-Provo area created this program in the 1970s to meet the needs of our Teachers Quorum age group. It was accepted by national BSA as a pilot, then as a regular part of their program.

      I wish I could help you more.

        Robert Lewis

    History of Scouting in the Church

      I did a little more checking on the web, and found this summary of the history of scouting within the Church. Here's the link:

        http://www.codinghelp.com/pack3/lds_scout_history.htm

      I also searched the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, and found several passages that helped explain the history.

      I just had one other question for you -- any idea why the Church hasn't set up a standard (or at least suggested) calendar for YM night merit badges?  I know every unit has different needs and/or interests, but I feel like I'm re-inventing the wheel here as I'm planning our year.  Someone must have a one- or two-year plan for how to get the Deacon age boys through their required merit badges. The Scoutmaster before me used more of a hit and miss approach.  I'll get a schedule in place, and if it works, hopefully the Scoutmasters after me will be able to keep it rolling. If you're aware of an LDS schedule that works, I'd love to see it. (If I find one, I'll send it along too!).

      Thanks again for your help.

        Scoutmaster from Oklahoma

      Dear Brother:

      I think the Church leaves the detailed training and instruction on program calendaring to the BSA.

      I know several scoutmasters who try to introduce the majority of the required merit badges on about a two-year schedule.  This way, any boy who comes into the program has a good opportunity to fulfill the majority of requirements for eagle by the time he is age 14.

      When I was scoutmaster, I started about 5 a year, one every 2-3 months.  I would take a little more time if the scouts were slow in finishing, so we didn't throw too much at them at once.

      There are obvious merit badges that belong to the summer, which either can best be done at camp or might coincide with summer vacation time.   There are also some that group together.  To get this cycle started, you probably also need to take into account which badges the majority of your boys need first.  With some thought, you probably can come up with a good very schedule that fits your troop's needs.

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    Is the Church phasing out scouting?  How is Duty to God supposed to work?

      I am from a small ward near ........ Since the introduction of the Duty to God Program in the Young Men's organization, rumor has been saying that the church is phasing out of the Scouting program.  I have two sons (22+23 years old) who are Eagle Scouts and an eleven year old who will soon be entering the Young Mens program.  I want for him to be active in scouting, but our ward leaders are somewhat resistant to actively pursuing troop activities. They are still struggling to get the Duty to God going. Are these programs mutually exclusive or can one be achieved through the other?

      Thanks for your help.

        Mother of boys in Pennsylvania (23 February 2003)

      Dear Sister:

      Thanks for writing.  I thought the general authorities were extraordinarily clear that the new Duty to God program did not replace Scouting, and that the Church has absolutely no intention of discontinuing scouting as our Aaronic Priesthood activity programs.  I would call that rumor a Mormon myth that seems to pass around among some people in the Church from time to time, maybe being supported by some wishful thinking on the part of some persons who are not fully converted to doing all in their power to help young men achieve the Aaronic Priesthood purposes. Some people, unfortunately may not be willing to pay the price to really master administering these programs and try to find excuses.....

      On Duty to God, I think there is a fair amount of cross-over between that and Scouting.  Service hours and projects could fill requirements in both programs simultaneously. Scouting merit badge work might satisfy a number of DTG requirements, as will meeting requirements for various Venturing awards for the Priests age group. I seems to me that DTG may work best when primarily driven from the family, with support from priesthood advisors.  I think parents should sit down with their boy perhaps monthly to plan with him, to assist him with requirements, and to sign off on things he has finished in the areas for parent sign-off. I think that about once every six months one of the boy's AP advisors should join this discussion.

      Best wishes for your 11 year old's AP and scouting career.

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Isn't getting the Eagle the main purpose of Scouting in the Church?

      If young men have gotten their Eagle, why would we want to set up a Venturing program?
      (Ward Young Mens President, 1 October, 2001)

      Dear _________

      You alluded to the notion that the main purpose that we are all working on in Scouting is to help our young men earn their Eagle Scout award. While having our young men earn their Eagle Scout award is a very admirable goal, I want to share my thoughts on why I believe that the Eagle is only a small part of our role as Scout Leaders.

      The aims of Scouting, as defined by the Boy Scouts of America, are:
      1) Character Development
      2) Citizenship Training
      3) Personal Fitness

      The Boy Scouts of America gives us eight methods to accomplish these aims:
      1) Ideals (Scout Oath, Law, Slogan and Motto)
      2) Patrols
      3) Outdoor Activities
      4) Advancement
      5) Personal Growth
      6) Adult Association
      7) Leadership Development
      8) Uniform

      As you can see, earning the Eagle award is not one of the three aims of Scouting.  Also, earning the Eagle is not explicitly one of the eight methods of Scouting. Working towards Eagle is important and it is a great accomplishment when a young man earns it, however I have read statistics that only 3%-6% of Scouts earn their Eagle.  If Eagle were the main purpose of Scouting then Scouting is failing 94%-97% of its members.  I do not believe that Scouting is failing that many young men. Scouting is much, much more than earning Eagle.

      Advancement is one of the eight methods that we have been given to accomplish the true aims of Scouting: building young men of character, citizenship and personal (physical, emotional, spiritual) fitness. The advancement program provides an environment for young men to learn and experience new things.  In fact, it may expose them for the first time to something that becomes a life-long hobby, or even a career. The advancement program can help "round-out" a young man's knowledge base so that he becomes proficient in many different areas.  Advancement provides opportunities for young men to set and accomplish goals and be publicly recognized for his accomplishments.  In the advancement program to Eagle, a young man will be required to learn about their roles and responsibilities to their families, their communities, their nation, the world, and themselves.  They will be required to learn about taking care of personal and family finances.  They will be required to be proficient in first aid and lifesaving skills.  They will be required to understand and exercise the principles of physical fitness. They will be required to become comfortable in the outdoors and understand their responsibility to nature and the environment.  Yes, the Eagle Scout advancement program has a lot to offer a young man, if he wants the challenge.

      But, advancement is one small part of the entire picture.  We need to make sure that we are running our Scouting programs as they are outlined in the Scouting literature.  There are seven other methods that are equally important (Ideals, Patrols, Outdoor Activities, Personal Growth, Adult Association, Leadership Development, Uniform.)  We should feel compelled to help our young men advance. We should feel just as compelled to provide an environment where the young men are empowered to run their own program--gaining leadership experience by planning successful activities, making decisions, conducting meetings, leading outdoor excursions, etc.  We should feel just as compelled to have our young men wear Scout uniforms.  We should feel just as compelled to be having regular "Scoutmaster" Conferences with our young men to help them in their personal growth, to help them set and work towards meaningful goals. We should feel just as compelled to make sure that service activities are planned and run by the young men.  There are a lot of things we should feel just as strongly about making happen.

      These Scouting Programs, when run as designed, provide an environment that help young men develop character, citizenship (leading a group, contributing to a group) and personal (physical, emotional, spiritual) fitness.  These aims coexist very nicely with the purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood that we recite each week.  If we run a program that accomplishes the three aims of Scouting, we will easily develop young men who will want to and will fulfill the purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood.

      Now, for the Venturing Program.  The Venturing Program that is used by the Priests, is not the Boy Scouting program. It is much, much different.  In fact, Boy Scouts of America states that a Venturer cannot even work on Eagle Scout if he has not earned the First Class rank as a Scout or a Varsity Scout. So, essentially, Boy Scouts of America allows a Venturer to finish his Eagle if he is well on his way, but does not really encourage Eagle Scout advancement as part of the Venturing program. The Venturing Program has its own recognition (advancement) program: the Bronze, Silver and Gold Awards and the Ranger award.

      The aims of Venturing are identical to the aims of Boy Scouting:
      1) Character Development
      2) Citizenship Training
      3) Personal Fitness

      The methods are slightly different:
      1) Leadership
      2) Group Activities
      3) Adult Association
      4) Recognition
      5) Ideals (Venturing Oath and Code)
      6) High Adventure
      7) Teaching Others

      So, those seven things are the methods that a Venturer Advisor is given to accomplish the aims of Venturing. Recognition encompasses Venturing advancement (Bronze, Silver, Gold, Ranger) but the literature for this method does not talk much, if at all, about Eagle Scout. Eagle Scout advancement should not a large part of the Venturing program, unless the youth leaders of the Venturer Crew specifically decide that it is important to the crew to include it in the program. For more information on how to incorporate the methods of Venturing into the Priests Quorum program in the LDS church you may want to look through the Venturing information on this website.

      Anyway, sorry for the rambling. My intention with this message is simply to express my belief that the Scouting programs are so much more than just advancement. I would not be disappointed if we never had an Eagle Scout, if our Scout Troop was continually helping our Deacons to fulfill the aims of Scouting (character development, personal fitness, citizenship training) and the purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood. When I got this calling, my dad (who is a big Scouter guy) gave me this one piece of advice. He said to "always remember that it is not my job to have perfect camps or perfect activities. It is not the end-result that is important, it is the process." We need to be careful not to get so concerned about the end-result (perfect camp, perfect activity, Eagle Scout) that we step in and do too much. We are not the leaders of the quorums/troop/team/crew. We are the advisors to those groups and to the leaders of those groups.  The growth that youth get from Scouting comes from the process of running the program as designed, with adult advisors in the background guiding them to success.  I truly believe that these programs, if run as designed, can help save the souls of our young men.

        Matthew

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Nurturing Young Mens/Scout Leaders

    How to learn scouting leadership, when I know very little about scouting?

      I was just called to be the Young Men's President in my ward and I know very little about Scouting.  If you could point me in the appropriate direction, I would really appreciate it. My Bishop is a great man-although not interested in scouting, and therefore not a great resource for scouting info.  Websites or any info appreciated.

        New Young Men's President (01 Jan 2001)

      Dear Brother:

      I don't know if you were able to access all of our materials.  All of the items you can begin to access on the next menu page should be helpful.  I suggest you look especially at my write-up "A Bishop's View of Aaronic Priesthood and Scouting." Then I suggest you download and print off the three guides which our stake produced, for Venturing, Varsity Scouting and regular Scouting.  The first two are also detailed out on our website so could be viewed or printed a page at a time. These guides should give a good introduction to each of the three scouting programs as they might be implemented to support each of the AP quorums.

      Also, there should be resources through your local scouting district or council. There should be someone who can do a "Fast Start" training for you and then tell you of additional training resources.  I suggest that you look toward going through the Scout leader basic training as soon as possible.   I'm not sure where you are located.  If you live in the Utah vicinity, your local districts may have some training resources  for Venturing and Varsity programs for the Teachers and Priests quorums. Outside of this area the BSA support for these older-boy programs is weaker. Support should be good everywhere for regular scouting.  Do you know how to contact these people?  If you do not, your stake YM leaders should know, or your should be able to find out who is in charge in your vicinity by calling your local BSA council office.

      I recommend that you begin to attend the monthly Round Table meeting of your local scouting district.  You should find lots of help there, particularly for the younger boy programs (regular scouts and cubs).

      If you have other questions, I would be glad to dialog with you some more.

      Good luck.

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    How to develop effective scouting programs in the Church and get needed support for scouting from Church leaders?

      I have been searching for information on how to run an effective scouting program. I'm a Second Counselor in our local bishopric. I joined the church almost 4yrs ago. Was called as a first counselor right away in the YM program, at that time (being new), the Bishop (at the time) asked me to ask the young men if they would like to play sports (basketball in short) or if they wanted to do scouting?

      I'm not at all interested in sports (basketball, football, baseball) and never have been!  And to make matters worse, had very little experience with scouting-- for sure nothing positive". Of course the young men picked b.b. so I became a baby sitter a couple of hours a week. ... After a couple of months I was called as the YM Pres.  I get several boxes of stuff books and literature on and about the YM program, including this scouting program? I told the "now new" Bishop that it appeared that this scouting program was or seemed to be... very well-accepted by the church? And what was his understanding?   "Ask the YM what do they want to do?" ... OK, as if I expected a different response (b.b.) for the next 6-8 months. I tried to learn more. I think the Spirit was nudging me. I talked to the stake YM Pres. He wasn't very interested and said "Look, are the kids having fun? Are you keeping them around and involved in their Sunday priesthood quorums?" "Yes I guess so? But what about scouting?" "If they want to do it, do it; if not, don't!"

      I felt I wasn't getting anywhere here so at a leadership conference, I asked other YM Presidents.  "What were you doing about scouting?" "Nothing really" was the general response, as if I should have expected different. The stake wasn't leading; why should they?

      About this time I meet a parent/High Counselman who spent some long hours talking to me on the duties and responsibilities of the priesthood.  Starting with the bishop and working our way down.  At first I was very confused, not that I felt he was wrong, but if this "was" true (as I felt and knew) why in fact wasn't somebody doing something about it?  Response...free agency! They the leaders will be responsible. Just do your best....

      Last July, we got another Bishop, and  I was brought into the Bishopric, and again, the same thing, boxes of junk dating back to the early 80's with not much organization...Unfortunately the bishop (a very good man) doesn't share the same vision that I do.  He works more with the youth than any past Bishop but he is elderly and just doesn't want to do all of the program. I do love him and respect him but I must move on for myself and for the young men. The first counselor is another good man but has told me he has raised his children and doesn't want to work or be bothered with the YM. How sad? When I try to explain his duties and responsibilities, he says "I don't care, if you want the YM you can have them.  I just am not interested in raising someone else kids". So I am ....

      In August, of last year I got a man who seemed good with the YM. He took the calling and went to scout master fundamentals.    ...And at the end of March he asked to be released.  Oh well, just another obstacle. I really have some great kids, and I owe it to them to do the best I can to learn and change the ward thinking to show how important scouting is. A very great problem to us, was not having a guide to work with, for our Varsity and Venture program.  I was very excited to see yours and would like to see if with Bishop/Stake approval I can run it.  At present I'm a charter rep.(and SM temporarily and hopefully!). I know my training will pay off.

      I also go to the Round Table every month, most of the time alone or with one other.  Hard to encourage other to go.  Its 60 miles away. I'm also going to start attending "Mormon relations" at council office.  Please, if I haven't bored you to tears, and you can think of any additional training I haven't mentioned, please inform me. I'll travel anywhere in the world to do what's right!  The better I'm trained the better I can teach the better I teach the more YM I will get to the temple and on a mission.

        Bishop's Counselor (26 Apr 1999)

      Dear Brother:

      My heart really goes out to you, and I see something of myself in your struggles.  My associates and I have struggled with some of the same issues here, after we fully caught the vision of how the various scouting programs could really assist us to help our young men reach their spiritual potential.

      I am not sure why some priesthood leaders have such a hard time in grasping what scouting can do--maybe they just aren't willing to pay the price to learn these programs well enough. One of the things that attracted me to the Church was that it did not hold back. I observed that if it started to do something, it committed to fully do it.  Nothing was done unless it was well done. I also was impressed with how the Church was committed to help the "whole man" spiritual, physical, temporal, social, economic.  Sometimes we don't live up to these ideals as perfectly as we might and perhaps in our work with our youth this is especially true.

      On the other hand, we have had some wonderful successes here with these scouting programs as adjuncts to our Aaronic Priesthood work and have seen marvelous things happen to young men through conscientiously implementing scouting, varsity and venturing. It is hard for me not to be emotional about these things, because of the very, very real benefits, growth, leadership training, spiritual progress that good AP scouting programs brought to my own four sons.

      Can I also urge you to keep the faith and don't despair. I have struggled some with these kinds of frustrations aimed at some priesthood leaders who don't support Aaronic Priesthood scouting as I would wish. I know that we cannot afford to get ourselves estranged from our priesthood leaders who hold the keys to the ordinances of salvation. We have to be careful, I think, to be "priesthood men" first, in spite of our love and commitment to scouting.  We have to recognize that our stake president is the "prophet for our stake" and may choose to balance the emphasis on programs according to his best judgment and experiences in life.

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      California Varsity leader (November 2003)

      Dear Brother:

      I have taken a little while to respond to your interesting and provocative e-mail. My son and I have put some new things out on our website in the last few days that may address some of your issues, but I also want to respond personally to some of the items. Work with the YM programs is very challenging and you must be among the strongest Melchizedek Priesthood holders in your ward to have received your assignment.  I hope I can be helpful.

      I think that the idea that "scouting is going away", that our Church is sending out signals somehow that it is going to abandon the long-standing partnership with BSA, has got to be classified among the worst and most enduring and unsupported of the "Mormon myths" that won't go away in spite of everything that the General Authorities say to try to kill it. Read the rebuttal to this myth in the General YM President Elder Hammond's Church News interview of 20 Sept 2003 as the latest attempt to validate the continuing relationship between the Church's YM and scouting programs.  I can send the full text to you if you don't have access.  We quote a piece of it in our LDSScouting.org section on Duty to God and the older-boy scouting programs.

      Unfortunately, as you say, there are many persons (parents, leaders, YM) who only see scouting to be only about getting the eagle (can we call this Scouting myth #2?).  I believe that it is one of the obligations of priesthood holders in positions of authority for our YM to teach parents, YM, etc., the full value and benefit of these programs.  Successful rank advancement and other awards are an outward evidence that the character, fitness, and personal development that are the true aims of scouting programs are occurring in the life of the YM.

      I have great appreciation personally for the scouting programs that have been operated in our ward starting with Cubs and carrying through Deacons, Teachers, and Priests because of the wonderful training they gave to my own four sons. Everything that was done in Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Exploring/Venturing truly supported and furthered their progress as Aaronic Priesthood holders in preparations for missions, education, careers, marriage and family life, and commitment to service in the Church as adults. I am continually puzzled when leaders of YM seem not to want all of these experiences, tools, etc., for their sons and other young men in their wards and stakes for whom they are responsible. I just don't know how our YM leaders would have been successful without learning and using these programs to the max.

      One of the questions I had as I read your e-mail had to do with how many YM you have in your group.  We talk about some sizing issues and options for combining programs in a new write-up on our website.  If you only a have handful of Priests and Teachers, including them in the Scout Troop might be a workable option.  But there are big disadvantages also.  We go into some detail in our new write-up.

      Where did the idea come from that young men in Varsity and Venturing cannot work on their eagle awards outside of the troop? That sounds like Myth #2 and may be evidence that the Bishopric and YM leaders need to do more education work with the YM and their parents.  My experience is that parents and boys welcome the Varsity, Venturing programs including uniforms, awards, and all the rest, when the YM leaders and Bishopric make a full and enthusiastic commitment. 

      Yep. That's largely what it takes–Bishopric and YM leaders getting behind it and making it happen.  Then wonderful things can result in the lives of the YM.

      May God bless you with success in making the right and best programs happen for your YM. If we can help you further in any way, please get back to us.

         Robert

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Organizational Issues in the Scouting Programs

    How to organize the scouting programs when there are not very many boys?

      I have some questions. We are struggling in our scouting program.  We read the green book and understand the program. But how do you work the program when you don't have the numbers. We have 4 active Deacons, 4 Teachers and 2 Priests.  The bishop wants to go strictly by the green book.  Which works great when you have the numbers.

      How do you run the patrol method with four boys?

      Please send any suggestions and ideas.

      Thank you, (02 October 2000)

       

      Dear Sister:

      Great questions. Its certainly more fun with more boys. But here are some options. Maybe combine the Priests and Teachers and register and use only one of the older boy programs, maybe Venturing. Varsity and Venturing are very similar in concept. Perhaps the Priests 1st Asst would be Crew President and the Teacher President could be a Crew Vice President to give both quorum officers status in the program.

      I have had some contact with a Canadian YM's leader who said Canadian wards routinely register a single Venturing program for their two older boy programs.  They split it into two autonomous programs in the ward if they have the numbers but combine it into one if they only have a few young men.

      At the Scout level, a troop can operate with a single 4 boy patrol.  Maybe your officers would be Sr. patrol leader, Asst Sr. patrol leader, etc. (no patrol officers).

      Another approach is to combine age-group programs across wards, but it has lots of disadvantages (scouting becomes more detached from the quorums, distance may be make this unworkable, etc.).

      Good luck. Get back to me if you want more of AP scouting from our experience.

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    What should a Scoutmaster do when teachers and priests want to be in the scout troop because their ward Varsity and Venturing programs don't give them what they want or need?

      I would like your guidance on a developing problem in our Ward scout program. Our Stake recently realigned several Ward boundaries to create two new Wards in April 2000. As a result, our was created and a new scout unit was organized.

      We've overcome some obstacles, such as integrating the Deacon aged boys and Eleven Year Old Scouts from various scout units into ours. Nevertheless, some of the teacher/priest aged young men, who have a desire to earn their Eagle and are still focused on rank advancement, have not been as fortunate.

      Over the past few weeks, four teacher/priest aged young men have approached me about dropping out of the Varsity/Venture program and joining the main troop (which is comprised of Deacon aged boys). Their parents have expressed similar concerns. They have similar reasons for wanting to change programs/units. First, their Varsity/Venture leaders are not trained - despite having several opportunities to do so. Second, the adult leaders have shown a lack of interest in the Varsity/Venture program (high turnover of leaders, weekly meetings are not regularly held, no participation in District/Council events). And third, the Varsity and Venture programs are focused on high adventure activities - not rank advancement. These boys are still working on rank advancement - two are life scouts, one is a star scout, and one is a first class scout and all of them want to earn their Eagle.

      Since the Deacon aged boys are actively participating in scouting events, are focused on rank advancement, and have trained leaders, the main troop is more appealing than the Varsity/Venture programs in our Ward. I understand the primary purpose of the Varsity and Venture programs is to provide quorum unity. However, these programs are obviously not providing for the needs of the boys in our Ward. Questions:

      (1) Should these boys join the main troop?

      My proposal is to organize a Venture patrol within the main troop. This proposal meets the boys' need for rank advancement, provides a better organized program with trained leaders, and participates actively in District/Council events. It also adheres to the Church's policy/guidance on building quorum unity by keeping boys of similar ages together in a patrol.

      Any thoughts?

      (2) How should I approach this issue with the Young Men's President and Bishopric?

      These boys took the initiative to speak out. They have approached me on their own initiative. They are demanding to join the main troop and their parents share their views.

      The Bishopric and Young Men's Presidency are concerned about the boys' needs,  however little has been done to address/correct this problem. Thus, the seriousness of this problem has grown in recent weeks due to months of neglect/ignoring the problem.

      (3) What is the Church's policy on keeping boys in the Varsity and Venture programs?

      It is my belief that the needs of these boys (rank advancement, earning  their Eagle Scout, and providing an enriching scouting experience) should come first. In my opinion, forcing young men to participate in failing Varsity/Venture programs is not in their best  interest. Perhaps, these programs can be improved over time. But, a solution to this problem should come sooner rather than later.

      (4) Have other Wards had similar problems?

      I'm interested in finding out how they handled this problem.

        Scoutmaster in Florida (02 February 2001)

      Dear Brother:

      You pose some difficult and wrenching questions. I know of a number of competent scoutmasters who agonize about sending their boys on to indifferent programs. You love the boys, you want them to finish their Eagle, and even more important, you want them to continue to love to be active in the Priesthood and Church.  My second counselor was a scoutmaster a few years ago in an identical situation. His strategy was to keep the boys as long as he could, to invite them back whenever there was an opening to do so, and to give as much personal attention to them as he could after they were not coming to troop activities and meetings. The downside of this was that the Teachers/Varsity leaders developed some resentment at having their boys invited away from Teachers/Varsity activities to attend things with the scouts.

      When I was scoutmaster, I promoted what we called "the Eagle Patrol", an informal group that met monthly to help the Teachers and Priests to progress toward Eagle. I got the Varsity and Venturer leaders to come to my home on a Sunday after church every month along with any older boy who was not an Eagle. Then we got reports and made plans. Sometimes we divided up and worked individually with these kids. This was my way of continuing to help my kids move toward Eagle without antagonizing their leaders.

      I support your idea that young men all need an enriching scouting experience (including rank advancement support). While I know from my own experience that Varsity and Venturing can provide all that, it may not be a reality in the short-run in your ward.  I also am converted to BSA training, if you can find it, and Round Table attendance, for the leaders of the older boy programs.

      I guess the other side of the coin is, though, that if you compete with their own quorum leaders for the 14-17 year boys' allegiances and win, the Teachers and Priests quorums will never have the ability to develop strong programs of their own. Also, you risk a lot of contention and bad feelings in your relationships with these other priesthood brethren if you choose to compete with them for the allegiance of the boys in their quorums for attendance at activities.  Ideally there should be an equal level of commitment to great scouting at every age level of the young men and the entire scouting program for boys 8-18 working together as a coordinated whole.

      On the other hand, I think the organization you propose could work, with a Venture patrol attached to your troop, if that is the way the ward wants its scouting programs to operate.

      I think the key is that you absolutely have to have the Bishop's support.  I suggest that you might request a private appointment with him and perhaps his second counselor. Lay the whole dilemma out to him.  Especially emphasize the requests of the families and boys from the 14-and-over group to rejoin the troop, and your great concern that they have a strong Aaronic Priesthood scouting program that includes good support for completing the Eagle.  Maybe take along the most vocal of the parents who have been requesting the switch of their boys back to your program?  That might get his attention in a way that perhaps you could not.

      These are my thoughts. I hope they are a little helpful.  Feel free to write again. I'd like to hear what happens.

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Policies and Procedure Questions

    Which Church leaders should register with the BSA?

      I have been studying your LDSScouting web site.  Thank you for all the hard work you and your son have done. The information has been a lot of help to me.  I am currently serving as the second counselor in the Stake Presidency in ...North Carolina.

      We have been working to build up our scout units through out the stake, and have had some success. We are currently trying to have our adult leaders become more involved in the districts (which are 6) and the Councils ( which are 2). We now have cub, and Scout leaders attending Round Tables.  I have seen in years past a list showing where Bishoprics, Stake YM presidencies, High Councilors over scouting, and Stake Presidencies should register and serve on District and Council broads and committee's.  I have not been able to find this information again, and I was hoping you might have access to it.

      I will be very grateful for any information you could share with us. (27 September 2000)

       

      Dear President:

      It sounds as if you have a nice vision of where you should go in your leadership of the Young Mens programs. I think that you are correct in pushing Round Table.

      Sometimes I have felt that a lot of the success in scouting comes from creating a scouting program culture in the ward and among the boys and families for the various age groups.  To create those cultures leaders must associate with other adults who also work in their particular scouting culture (that is, cubs, boy scouts, etc.). When cub leaders get indoctrinated into and absorb the culture of cubbing, then they can create a fun-filled and stimulating cub culture for the boys they serve, and the same for the older-boy programs.  I think Round Table attendance is indispensable and of course the various BSA training programs are very important, too, to socialize our people in these cultures so they in turn can re-create them in their scouting units in the ward.

      As for the leaders you list registering with scouting, I think the Bishopric should all be registered, the Bishop as sponsoring institution head and I feel also as a member of the Venturer Committee (I am the chairman of mine), the Bishops 1st counselor with Varsity Committee, and the Bishops 2nd counselor as both member of the Troop Committee and Chartered Organization Representative (COR).

      There probably is a BSA district meeting specifically for the CORs.  Here in the Great Salt Lake Council, it is monthly. I believe that the Stake YM presidency can play a critical role with District or Council.  They can be great resources and communication links between the scouting programs and the Church.  I spent 6 years in our Stake YM Presidency and was able to contribute to the various scouting programs in our BSA District in a quite meaningful way. I believed it was my obligation to exercise enough influence in the District organization of my scouting family (I actually served as 2nd C, then 1st C, then the YM president for 3 of the years and so worked at the District level with Scouting, then Varsity, then Explorers/Venturing) so that I was sure that the District was providing the program supports our ward YM leaders needed.  A lot of the Venturing material on our website were developed during these years, as I and a couple of other YM Presidents from neighboring worked and pushed as hard as we could to get more supports for the older boy scouting programs. I see the stake YM presidency as advocates for resources for our programs (training, program helps, etc.).  Certainly also, there is a role for the Stake President or the Counselor over youth programs to be active in District or Council in a high level policy-setting role.

      In many instances, if we who have responsibility for YM programs in wards and stakes do not demand sufficient help and support from BSA districts and councils, we won't get it.  And the best way to get support is to pitch in and help, build relationships, volunteer, etc.

      So, I don't really know of a place where specific instructions are given about our involvement in BSA District/Council roles except in principle in the green Scouting Handbook of the Church, but from experience, I believe there is no other good way to get the program support we need.

      I hope I have been a little helpful to you.

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    Church rules about staffing Cubbing and Scouting positions

      In our stake, there is much confusion about Scouting.  I have the following questions and can't get straight answers.

      1. The hand book says that the bishopric calls members of the unit committees.  Is this done with input from YM or Primary, or from the Committee, committee chairs?  Different wards do it differently here.

      2. I realize that Scoutmasters must be men, must they be LDS? Priesthood holders?  Can non-members serve in this position?  What about Cubmasters?  Can a woman be a Cubmaster? What about Committee Chairs? Men?, Women?, members?, non-members?

      3. Can a woman be a Webelos leader? What about a women being an 11 year old scout leader.  If so, is there a rule about their assistants must be women too?

      4. Since the units do not pay dues or registration fees, who pays for non-members to be registered in LDS units?  Do we collect registration fees and dues from them? This is being done differently in the two stakes too. 

      These questions, and many more are just some of the problems I am running into.  Even members of the Stake leadership have differing opinions.  I am a district unit commissioner and have been in scouting for 37 years and have been to Cub, Scout and Varsity Wood Badge. I have also been to Philmont LDS training. So, I'm not totally ignorant when it comes to the Scouting  program. I am currently our wards pack committee chair and work with the Troop and Crew and have run into the problems continually. Any help is appreciated.

        Cub worker from Indiana (15 May 2002)

      Dear Sister:

      I think that many of your questions do not have cut and dried answers, but must be dealt with according to individual situations and inspiration.  With that said, I give you some of my opinions and experience, as a Bishop and former Scoutmaster, YM President, etc.

      1. My approach would generally be to get input from key people and then have the Bishopric make these as calls from the ward.  Occasionally as a scout leader, I involved people on the troop committee and then informed my priesthood leaders later.

      2. We have almost always have the same man be YM 2nd counselor, Deacons Advisor, and Scoutmaster. Also the YM 1st Counselor also be Teacher's Advisor and Varsity Coach.  Also, the man who is YM President be Priests Advisor and Venturer Advisor.  So these men would not only have to be LDS, but exemplary priesthood holders, who can model missionary preparation and other manly priesthood qualities. We give each member of the YM Presidency two good assistants to keep the burnout down.  When I was Scoutmaster, I had a non-member assistant SM for a while whose son was in the troop, but he was very respectful of our use of scouting to achieve Aaronic Priesthood purposes.

      Depending on the availability of good men, we might use a not so active brother as one of the Assistants, but we should be very careful. The closer the boys get to mission age, the more I want exemplary, temple-recommend-holding men who have served missions as AP-scouting program advisors.

      For Cubs, we have used non-members.  Our last Cub Committee chair was a women.

      3. We prefer the Webelos leaders and 11 year old scout leaders to be men.  A married couple might work, also.  I wouldn't pair a woman leader and a man assistant together unless they were a married couple. Too much temptation and would look bad to others.

      4. We pay registration fees for non-members who want to join our programs.

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    Are Sunday Eagle Courts of Honor OK?

      I enjoy the information on your website. Thanks for all your work.  I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask. I have looked in the Church Hand book to find info on when or what day we should hold a Eagle Court of Honor.  Would it be ok to hold it on a Sunday night at the Church? To me what would be the difference between the Bishops youth discussion or a Court of Honor!

      Thanks for your help

        YM President in New Hampshire (11 March 2003)

      Dear Brother:

      I don't recall ever seeing anything in the Church Handbook of Instructions directing us one way or another.  Over the years in our ward, we have done the majority of our Eagle Courts on Sunday evenings. Of course, activities in a Sunday Court would need to be consistent with the Sabbath. I can think of weeknight courts, however, where people had birds flying or an army band or other activities that I think were too raucous for a Sunday meeting.

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    How can a non-member scoutmaster function with an LDS troop?

      Dear Robert,
      Thank you for your wonderful website.  What is the Official LDS Church policy about having a non-member Scoutmaster?  I'm new to this area and plan never to be a member of the LDS Church.  My wife is a member.  I was an Eagle Scout in the 70's and very familiar with the old traditional organization. The Bishop gave a calling for me to be a Scoutmaster of the 12-13 yr old deacons.  Without knowing much about LDS Church run troops but wanting to support my son, I accepted the position...[many more details about problems]

      What advice to you have? (28 January 2004)

     

      Dear friend:

      I have allowed myself a few days to ponder you e-mail before responding. What an interesting and challenging situation you find yourself in.  Let's see—the old scoutmaster who apparently was LDS left off being scoutmaster for the LDS ward out of, perhaps, some frustration with the support he was getting and became the scoutmaster for a city troop.  (Are you in a locale is not too populous and where many people know each other and perhaps boys could even choose between the troops if they desired?)   Also another LDS man is functioning as an assistant for both troops.  There is the possibility of doing some joint activities with the two troops together, but the ward Bishop doesn't want this to happen.  It appears to me that your ability to deal tactfully and positively and help bring people together for the sake of the young men may be severely tested, in a situation that has several people pulling in different directions.

      But let me try to respond to your specific questions.  (Let me make it clear that these will be my opinions.   I do not speak for the LDS church.)

      First, regarding whether there is an official LDS Church policy on non-member scoutmasters, the Church's "green" Scouting Handbook (I'm looking at a 1997 printing, p. 5), says this: "Worthy adults (whether members of the Church or not) may be called to serve as scout leaders."

      I had a wonderful non-member man as my assistant scoutmaster in an LDS troop and that worked out fine.

      However, it is unusual to have a non-member scoutmaster in LDS troops, and as you infer this may present some special challenges to you because of the particular setting and purposes scouting has in an LDS context (but not insurmountable ones, I think). (It may take extra effort to connect the troop program with the Deacon's Quorum, for example.)

      The LDS Church, like every other scouting chartered organization, uses scouting to achieve its institutional purposes, although the LDS Church purposes might be more specific and articulated than in some other settings. As you probably well know, Scouting has these aims: build character, foster citizenship, develop fitness.  The LDS Church charters scouting programs to be a part of its overall programs for its young men and specifically to achieve its purposes for its young men of Aaronic Priesthood age. These purposes have to do with building testimonies, growing in the priesthood, giving service, preparing for Melchizedek Priesthood/temple marriage/missions, obtaining education, preparing to be a good husband and father, and respecting women and children.  So the methods of scouting are utilized to assist a young man along the road to these latter purposes. I think that for you to be successful as being a scoutmaster of an LDS troop who happens to not be LDS, you would need to be at peace with what you are doing, that as you try to build fit young men of character and potential good citizens, it will support the Church's ultimate aims for its young men.

      But what if you had a couple of Catholic or Lutheran boys join the LDS troop?  I would think that they should be welcome. What purposes would you (or the Bishop) have for them, while being a part of an LDS-sponsored troop? I think I would draw the purposes from the desires of their families.  Or if you were in the city troop, with boys from a variety of religious backgrounds, and you had an LDS kid, wouldn't you encourage him to do his "Duty to God" according to what the LDS Church expects for a holder of the Aaronic Priesthood? What is the duty that an LDS deacon-scout has to God? What is the duty that a Catholic scout has to God? And so forth. 

      I think that you can be successful in encouraging a young man do his duty to God, from the perspective of his particular Church's and parents' expectations, even if you don't fully share these beliefs yourself.  The Bishop must have sensed that you had this ability or he wouldn't have asked you to be scoutmaster. Naturally you wouldn't be expected to teach these expectations, but to encourage boys to work with their parents and religious leaders to learn their religious duties.

      There is the issue as to how much you might have to adapt the scouting program to accommodate the LDS YM/YW superstructure.  You will have to fit your program around some joint YM-YW activities, such as a monthly joint activity, summer youth conference, and perhaps a joint opening exercise, and would almost always hold the regular troop meeting on the ward's Activity night.  The kids who are in your troop will largely be the Deacons quorum members, so you might have to work with a smaller number of boys than ideal if the quorum is small.  With these (possible) limitations, it seems to me that you could run the full scouting program pretty much "by the book."

      I personally favor running LDS troops as close to the BSA ideal pattern as possible. I know some persons who would like to inject a lot more religion into the program. However, I think that it serves the purpose of missionary preparation just fine, for example, to teach a boy to fix and clean up after a meal, take good care of his tent and belongings, and spend a week away from his mother every year.

      As Scoutmaster, I too would find it difficult to have the Senior Patrol Leader not be my best scout. The thing your Bishop is trying to do will often work IF the troop has a several-year tradition of good scouting and all of the boys are progressing well in rank and skills, etc.  Then it generally works out that the Deacon's President, who typically will be the oldest faithful Deacon, is also equipped and prepared to be the leader in scouting.

      I have just finished terms as Scoutmaster and then Bishop, and tried through this nine-year period to implement this joint assignment as the ideal, but it doesn't always work out. When the Deacon's President is not the best scout, I think the duties have to be split. What if the best scout and natural leader in an LDS troop is a Catholic boy? In my experience, a scout troop has got to be run so that the senior patrol leader mostly gets that assignment by merit and every boy has something of an equal opportunity to earn that position. I think the Church's green handbook on Scouting supports or at least allows this concept when it says that the senior patrol leader is "nominated by the bishopric and sustained by quorum [in other words, troop] members, which for Scouting purposes constitutes elections. This leader is usually the quorum president…but may be another worthy young man, whether a member of the Church or not" (p. 3).

      It seems to me that you somehow have to get across the point to the Bishopric, in as tactful and non-threatening way as possible, that for you to be successful in leading their scouting program, you will need to share in the decision as to which boy is to be the Senior Patrol Leader and also that this boy needs to be the ranking or best scout in the troop.

       Good luck with this assignment. I'd love to hear back from you as to how your work with the troop is progressing.

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International Scouting

    Why does scouting not exist in the Church in New Zealand?

      I have just been called as the Stake Young Men's President for my stake here in New Zealand. I have always attended scouting as a youth. A thing I have not seen in my stake is the movement of scouting. So far the only answer I have heard is that scouting was discontinued due to the notion that it was to include young women as well. I have yet to take this discussion up with my stake president, but I just wanted to know that the church as a whole have not discouraged scouting, but after reading the home page for LDSScouting I note that President Hinckley is in full support of the program, so basically what I wanted to know was that is there any reason why we here in New Zealand can't run the scouting program or is it entirely up to the local leaders if they wanted to run it in there their stakes?

      Please advise,

        Stake Young Men's President in New Zealand (15 April 2001)

      Dear Brother:

      I do not know why scouting is not used by the Church in New Zealand. I do know that the scouting movement has developed differently in different countries, and is more compatible with the Aaronic Priesthood in some countries than others.  I have an acquaintance, very experienced in scouting leadership, who with his wife served a mission in Spain after he retired.  His assignment as a missionary was to develop LDS scouting in that country. Apparently there existed several different scouting organizations there--Catholic Scouts, Protestant Scouts, etc., none of which was sympathetic with our aims to make scouting the activity arm of our Aaronic Priesthood training for young men.  So, our church leaders chose to create our brand of scouting in addition.

      In the United States, the program of the Boy Scouts of America coordinates quite well with our church. That is because the BSA does not have any troops of its own. It supplies only the program, and then charters this program to other institutions, especially churches, to put it into effect.  An organization can use the BSA program to meet its own objective for its youth. We say in this country that we use the scouting programs to meet Aaronic Priesthood purposes, that is build testimonies, prepare young men for missions, etc.  BSA does not care what our institutional purposes are for the program and has no say in who the scouting leaders are to be or anything else about the direct use of the program, except to insist that certain general standards be met.

      Nationally, BSA allows young women to be a part of Venturing programs, but in the Church we do not include the girls and BSA does not care.

      In this country, the Church does not affiliate with the Girl Scouts of America.  I have heard that a major reason is that the Girl Scout organization insists on running its own programs, they recruit the local leaders, etc., etc.  We could never use the program as an official part of the Church, unless the Priesthood line has control over who would be the leaders of our youth.

      These are some of  my thoughts in response to your e-mail.

      Best wishes as a youth leader. Feel free to contact me again if could help you in some way.

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Scouting Finances

    Budget guideline questions

      I would like to know how you function within the confines of the Church's budget guidelines. Our wards are finding this very difficult to do and run an effective program.

        Stake Young Mens President in Nevada (09 December 1998)

      Dear Brother:

      I'll try to be helpful as I can. Our stake and ward leaders have allowed some flexibility in interpretation of the guidelines. 

      (1) They have said that since the YM "have to eat" whether they are camping or at home, we can charge a small amount for the cost of food for camps.  Therefore we typically ask each man and boy who is attending to pitch in $4-5 dollars each for an overnighter with about 3 meals.  We have been careful to make sure everyone can afford this, but the net effect is that there is very little cost to the troop to camp monthly.

      (2) All of our programs have effective group fund-raisers which supply costs of a long term camp and equipment purchases. For example, our scout troop has an American flag project in which it puts up flags in our ward neighborhood in suburban Salt Lake City each holiday.  If there is extra money in their account, they may pay for some things to benefit the troop also such as the part of the cost of advanced leader training and perhaps gas money for transporting the YM to camps.

      (3) The adult leaders and parents often do not ask for reimbursement for out-of-pocket expenses, especially transportation costs.  We encourage them to get reimbursement, but many will not ask for any money.

      (4) From the budget allocation, we provided $900 this year for awards for the four scouting programs, plus gave each program $200 for program costs.  Each of the four programs used as much for awards as they needed, without drawing on their own program budget.

      (5) I guess I would say we try to follow the spirit of the budget guidelines, yet sometimes we deal with them a little flexibly in order to have a program. I know of ward and stake leaders who interpret the guidelines more rigidly than we do and I respect that choice.  But we are providing a quality program at each level, and having some good success in reaching the YM, and I like our balance. I am currently the Bishop of our ward, and was previously the Deacon's Advisor and Scoutmaster.

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    What is the best way to credit money earned by scouts?

      I was wondering if you could answer a question for me. Our scouts in the past have worked on group fund raisers together, however we would keep track of each boys hours and a lot so much money to their summer activity based on the hours they worked. The money was held in an other account in the ward.

      I am no longer involved with the budget allocation for the scouts. Recently our ward leaders decided to take all the boys money leftover from last year and moneys from this years fund raisers and put it into one large fund without any visibility to the boy or the amount of hours worked toward the money.

      Some of the parents and the boys are not too happy with this idea. Some boys do not show up to all  the scheduled fund raiser events or show up for a few hours and leave. It seems to promote a lack of participation attitude because boy X will get the same amount as boy Y regardless of how many hours worked.

      Has there been a change in church policy for scout fund raisers and how the money should be handled? How is your ward and stake handle scout fund and fund raisers?

      Thanks for your reply. (14 June 1999)

       

      Dear Brother:

      We've used both systems and had them both work.  We used to do a lot of dinners and kept credit by the hour for each boy. Now we have a neighborhood holiday flag project and don't bother to keep track, except that we expect each family to help once a year with putting up and taking down flags.

      Actually the budget guidelines seem to me to not encourage these group fundraisers too much, but local leaders have given approval.  It sure helps to be able to run a good program.

      Good luck.

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